Tamara Simon, aka Bob the Builder for Small Business, shares her insights on helping owners overcome the complexities of running their businesses. She talks about the importance of systems and processes, time management, and the need for owners to work in their 'sweet spot'
@tamara simon discusses the challenges owners face, the value of financial awareness, and the necessity of breaking the cycle of overwork to achieve a more profitable and enjoyable business. Tamara shares insights from her book, 'The Five Little Business Pigs', which outlines strategies for building a successful business.
The discussion highlights the importance of reflection and understanding one's business dynamics to foster growth and sustainability. In this conversation, Tamara and @Michael Kerr cover;
Some takeaways;
@kerrcapital
Michael (00:01.09)
Welcome into episode 148 of Small Business Band to the podcast. Tamara Simon is my guest today. Lovely to have you on the podcast, Tamara.
Tamara (00:12.54)
Thanks so much for having me, Michael. Appreciate being here.
Michael (00:15.884)
Looking forward to our discussion. Bob the Builder for Small Business is kind of your tagline. do you wanna, you are a business, a small business coach and an expert in helping owners navigate complexity and help them build systems. But do you wanna talk a little bit about Tamara Simon and the work you do, please?
Tamara (00:39.784)
Sure, yeah, no worries. So as you said, I'm the speaker, author and coach, affectionately known as the Bob the Builder for small business. Can she fix it? Yes, she can. And that's mainly because I'm a problem solver. And so I help small business owners navigate the many challenges that come into their businesses. So we wanna solve those frustrating problems, simplify overwhelming systems, but also support them in times of
confusion and uncertainty. So, you know, that that's sort of what I do. But it's really about making sure my mission is to make sure that every owner has a simple profitable business they actually love. And they actually is important because there's times when we, you know, feel change of them, you know, there's times we want to go, you know, too much, I'll just go and get a job, it's got to be easier. So yeah, it's helping.
owners through that because they're really brave people as you know, you know, we make this brave, silly, you know, fun, ridiculous, you know, step that we decide to go out onto own and run our own business. But we need help with that.
Michael (01:50.083)
Yeah, wouldn't be in small business if you hadn't had some moments like that.
Tamara (01:55.162)
No, no, I mean, they tell us that success is like this and we all know that it's very much the jagged line. You know, I always say that my journey is like the snakes and ladders board game. You know, you go up to go down and the snakes come in and all of that sort of stuff. you know, it's it certainly is ups and downs and but it's very rewarding when we when we've got what we need and doing what we love.
Michael (02:19.21)
It sure is. And that transition from it's all chaotic, scattered gun all over the shop to some sense of order and an underlying financial viability. It's really, it's incredible to be involved with the business owner and a team to see a business get to that stage.
Tamara (02:43.624)
Absolutely, you and I think you've probably seen and spoken to people, you know, in my book I talk about that, you know, a lot of owners have actually got expensive hobbies rather than profitable businesses, you know, and so, you know, all this hard work is just not giving reward and that's where we need to help them.
Michael (03:00.706)
There's a lot of hope and expectation, think, early days in most small businesses. that sustains you, that energy and vision and sustains you for so long. Yeah, yeah. And the danger, I guess, is that you stay in that pattern of it's what it is. And that's obviously what you do a lot of work on. Before we dig into what you do now,
Tamara (03:14.792)
And then reality hits.
Tamara (03:22.13)
Yes.
Tamara (03:27.357)
Yes.
Michael (03:30.528)
Your background was out of small business, I think, and you came into small business with a very strong understanding of systems and processes. Do you want to talk just to set that scene for us?
Tamara (03:45.682)
Yeah, sure. in my employment life, so, you know, went to uni, did business management, came out of that and went, well, I don't think I'm a business manager, so what am I? And, you know, got some jobs in government. But I discovered through uni that I was really good at training, which doesn't surprise me because I was always, you know, good at speaking presentations. I've been doing that, you know, most of my life.
So I went back to uni to do post-grad to gain those training qualifications because at that stage I didn't know about TAFE and the whole world of vocational education training and then was looking for opportunities to get into that and just by chance that got me into the world of vocational education training and I've been in that for nearly 30 years now as sort of one niche area, both doing policy work, auditing them.
you know, helping them understand compliance and a whole range of things. But I've always been the systems person, you know, I'm the person at school that everyone came to get their work checked. I've always created checklists.
Michael (04:46.798)
Okay, let's start here and go through step by step.
Tamara (04:51.718)
Yeah, that's exactly right. You know, I'm very much a checklist girl, but I've always, through my employment, just tried to make the organization better and to fill the gaps. You know, years ago I worked on a front counter, which no one ever wanted to do. And so when there wasn't customers, I wrote the scripts so that when someone relieved me at lunch, you know, there was consistency and people were easily able to pick up what needed to be done. And that's just what I do.
because I think it's so important to make sure that people are trained in what they do, can make life easier when someone else comes into that role even just for a short time. But we know that systems, they're the foundations of everything. And as much as people go, I don't like them, they actually crave them. But as long as they're simple. So yeah, my work life's been really diverse, which gives me lots of...
know, depth and breadth, I suppose, from an experience point of view. And, you know, I fell into becoming a small business owner because someone said, hey, how about you want to help us do some training for some people? And so I quit the CEO job. I was looking for a new challenge. And overnight, you become a small business owner as a consultant and a trainer and go, OK. And 22 years later, I'm still here.
Michael (06:09.23)
Yeah, it was serendipitous or somebody tapped you on the shoulder, were at the right time for you to think about a change and then you launch into the small business area. are there any small businesses that couldn't benefit from...
Tamara (06:23.324)
Yes.
Michael (06:34.786)
Better systems.
Tamara (06:37.566)
no, no, I mean, that's, we know that's what people want, need, you know, I mean, generally people say, I know I need them tomorrow, but I'll do them when I, when I'm busy, you know, less busy your time and stuff. know, I believe there's a system in everything. You've just got to find it, you know? So, you know, that's not just checklists and policies and that that's about, well, you know, how does someone answer the phone? That's a system, you know, how do you decide your calendar or manage your time?
Michael (06:52.674)
Yeah.
Tamara (07:06.396)
All of those are systems. So I think we get caught up a bit into the documentation side of things, but forget there's all these other things that are all needed as part of a success.
Michael (07:18.914)
Yeah, it can sound, I'm totally with you. I've never seen a business that doesn't, even the really highly creative businesses, they still need a process for being creative. So I'm with you there and it's, guess the ongoing query for me is why small business owners don't take that leap.
Tamara (07:30.45)
Yes, yeah.
Michael (07:47.694)
to make their business more systematic, structured, repeatable. So what's your take on that? Is it a personal thing? Is it a time thing? What is it?
Tamara (07:59.628)
look, I think initially it's mainly a time thing, right? Because what happens in our small business journey is that we make this decision. And so all we're doing is running to try and bring clients and customers into the door. So that's all we're doing because we just need to get money in to keep the lights on in the house and all of those type of things.
But then what happens is we get a bit of growth. Life starts to get a little bit easier for us because clients are coming to us rather than us trying to have to find them all the time. So we get into this growth bit and then we find, hang on, the team's growing from myself and maybe one other person to two, three, five people. And what happens is when we're in that midst of growth, which is frenetic for a lot of businesses, things that used to work with
yourself or one or two people because it was just in your head, no longer work with a team. Right. And that's when the wheels start to fall off because, you know, the owner says to me, well, why isn't this working? I don't understand. The team, you know, isn't in harmony anymore. And they used to be. I said, yeah, because all the knowledge now is in everyone's heads or we've created habits. You know, this person does it like this and you've gotten bigger. So you're actually quite detached.
from what's actually happening in your business where you used to know every part of it, right? So I think initially it's a time thing, but also it's understanding that, you know, I have so many people and owners say, Tamara, I, you know, I told my staff just to do it as they go. Can I tell you right now that does not work, right? And the reason for that, there's two reasons. The first is that when you're doing a task, whether it's you or your team, right? You just do it by habit.
Right? So maybe you're doing an invoice or whatever it might be. You just do it by habit. Right? And if I say to you, well, what did you do? The usual answer I get is, I actually don't know because we've just done it by habit. We don't even think about it. Right? So.
Michael (09:59.566)
Yeah. You don't even think about whether it's the most efficient way to do it or, you know, is there a better way? Because you get the job done.
Tamara (10:05.064)
Correct. Yeah. Yeah, you just, I'm just doing it. That's right. I'm just doing the task. So, so we've got pressure, you know, from ourselves and owners and that to actually get the task done. Right? So unless you actually give staff and yourself time blocked away to only do that, they won't happen. Right? Which is why I say to people, you need to get me in or someone else.
to actually help you. McDonald's didn't write their own procedures and stuff like that. They worked, well they did, but they worked through it and took time aside. If you've seen the movie, the basketball scene of how they were trying to get most efficient. So we need to give people time to actually have someone asking the questions. So now what do you do? So now what do you do? you have a checklist for that? No, because once you actually work out how someone does it now,
You can then look to see, how come is the duplication and there probably is, and how can we do it simpler? But if you say to yourself or your team, I'll just do it as you go, it just will not happen because the time pressure is too much and you're not getting what you actually need. So you've got to do. And so therefore owners say, well, I don't have time for them to do that. I go, yeah, but that actually means that you're okay spending time fixing mistakes, troubleshooting, dealing with conflict, all of that, because that's what we do.
Unless we resolve it properly, we just band-aid, but we say we don't have time. Well, we do, but we're putting time into all of that. So there is time, we're just choosing the wrong thing.
Michael (11:34.434)
Yes.
Michael (11:43.695)
Yeah, think, yeah, yeah. And look, you know, if you're going through a period of growth or you've got other distractions that can mask the issue, and the issue may not be really visible, is, so I think that role that you play of going in and saying, so it's gotta start with the owner, doesn't it? The owner has gotta say, I've had enough, or I can see a different way.
Tamara (12:00.264)
All right.
Tamara (12:07.73)
Yes.
Michael (12:12.878)
Where I see it lot is when owners coming up to selling a business
Tamara (12:18.431)
yeah.
Michael (12:20.47)
The, when almost the first question for a buyer is what happens, whether they ask it directly or not, doesn't matter, but they're thinking if that owner leaves after a month, what happens to the business? Okay, we've got two ways to mitigate that. The owner can hang around a bit longer and, but if you have systems and processes, it's a really big tick. So what...
Tamara (12:27.538)
Yes, lie.
Tamara (12:32.936)
Yeah.
Michael (12:47.242)
So the owners don't have time. are you, are you expert in expert in saying to owners, look, this is going to bite you on the backside at some point. let's, you know, carve out a bit of time and a bit of budget now. Is that how you go about it?
Tamara (13:01.564)
Yeah, look, generally, some of it is, we have to find the time first, right? Because we all know that we need to be profitable, we need to understand our ideal client, we need to put systems in place. But if the owner itself has not got time, because that's what they tell me, right? And I know they don't, right? We all don't. But that's the problem I've got to solve first.
So I've got to look at how they're actually spending their day. Are they starting their day with emails, which is not how they should start, right? Where are those little distractions coming through? And let's fix that a little bit first and just find some bits. So my objective is to find 15 minutes a day initially. And people go, but that's nothing tomorrow. I go, yeah, but if my math's right, that's an hour and a quarter a week, you weren't doing writing one process.
Now, maybe it's going to take longer than that or whatever, but with, you know, we've progressed so far. You know, I was the person writing kits with Microsoft Word where you do a screenshot and you put it into a Word template and you do arrows. And I mean, you can just do a video now of so much of, know, how they use email or how they use your database or videos are the best way to do it. Right. And you don't have to get it right. It's just get it down because something is better than nothing.
Michael (14:04.64)
Yeah.
Tamara (14:23.356)
because otherwise it walks out the door if you staff leave. If something happens to you, health-wise or personally or whatever, you're staffed. But the reality is, and you would know from the sale point of view, if you wanna grow, need systems, simple as that. Knowledge can't stay in someone's head. But if you want a better valuation, the systems do that for you as part of that, right? So.
Michael (14:46.286)
Yeah, look, it adds to the multiple, because a chaotic unstructured business can be making the same amount of money as a structured business, but you're gonna get more for the structured business. This gives buyers more comfort. So the payoff for an owner is...
Tamara (15:03.048)
Yeah!
Michael (15:13.556)
is really if they do it well, there's a payoff now because your system, sorry, your business gets more efficient and presumably that parlays into if not more profit, more time for the owner to think about some of the more important issues. But certainly later it does translate to a higher potential valuation when you sell, which may or may not be, you know, it doesn't have to be the objective of systemizing your business by the way, does it? We want every owner to
Tamara (15:19.634)
Correct.
Michael (15:42.338)
make their business, what was your terminology? A less expensive hobby or a less dysfunctional workplace?
Tamara (15:47.6)
Yeah, yeah. That's exactly right. know, so that's the thing with systems sometimes, right? Because I'm really honest with owners and staff about them as well. You know, if we're really going to be looking at them, the reality is in the beginning, it is two steps forward, eight steps back, right? Because we're just trying to tweak and get the stuff out and take those little bits. But when I talk to be at owners or particularly staff about
What's the biggest frustration? The answer is I have no idea what I'm supposed to be doing tomorrow. I just want some clarity. One minute I'm doing this, then they're telling me I'm doing that, the goalposts change every day. I just want to know how I'm supposed to do my job. I'm doing the best I can. And owners have the best intentions. Nice, small business owners, there's very few that are really trying to sabotage or create conflict and that. It's just because we're so busy.
Michael (16:43.182)
And probably most business owners would have an area of real strength that they're particularly good at. it's hard, I think it's hard to understand why others aren't. So it might be in marketing, it might be in manufacturing, but yeah, the staff that plea from a staff, it's kind of, it's where the opportunities are, is if you can get more from your staff through better systems.
Tamara (16:56.488)
Correct.
Michael (17:11.858)
or better understanding or organisational design. It's a hell of a boost to your business success.
Tamara (17:19.036)
Well, it is, right? So my drive when I'm looking at businesses is I want everyone, including the owner, to work in their sweet spot 80 % of every single day. And what I mean by that is doing the work that they love and they're really good at. Because if we can get that for both the owner, and that may be doing no work in the business, right? There are some owners where I go, yeah, you really need someone else to run the business, right? Let's get you doing the fun stuff.
you know, and we know in Michael Gerber's book that he talks about the technician, right? In my book, I say, I think most small business owners are not the entrepreneur that always wanted a business. They're people like me, right? We're reluctant small business owners who are good at something. And then we become this owner and we grow and then go, crikey, I'm not good at marketing. I'm not good at sales. Maybe it's finance, whatever it is. But we've been told this, this horrible myth.
that we're supposed to know everything and be good at everything. And it's just fallacy, right?
Michael (18:20.982)
Yeah, it creates a whole lot of unhealthy expectations from everybody else looking in from staff looking up or across depending on how you designed your organization.
Tamara (18:33.606)
Yeah, so we need to give the gift of asking for help is okay. Right? And understanding that you will never be good at everything and you will never know everything. So it's just like if we're building a house, if I use my analogy, excuse me, then what are the experts that you get in? The plumbers and the electricians and it's not just one person who's doing it. But once we can get everyone working in their sweet spot, then
Michael (18:46.915)
Yes
Tamara (19:01.34)
They can cope with the 20 % of the work that is in that role, but they really don't like doing, but all the other stuff is good. And productivity and harmony and all those things fall off it, but you only get that if A, you know what people love to do and a good art, and then you make sure that those functions and tasks sit within the business and you document the simple ways to do that. Then it starts to hump, then it's really cool.
Michael (19:08.952)
Yeah.
Michael (19:28.11)
Yeah, I think that, you know, if that was 80, 20, this, do you do the stuff you're really good at, but don't, don't you, you've got to have a budget for stuff that only you as an owner are going to do. you, and so there might, be a 20 % and, and you get a reward for doing that, which is you can spend more, you know, maybe you can change the ratio or spend more time on the stuff you really like, but
There are things that ultimately will not change, will not get done. It's up to the owner. so you're having someone like you come in and be really honest and say, well, these are the things that are falling down. And you can't like for a period of time, you can't outsource that you've just got to bite the bullet and, and get in there and work out how it's done. You won't like it, but you'll, you'll get a reward and
Tamara (20:19.528)
Hmm. Yeah. And so you've got to look at what those quick wins can be for both the owner and the staff, right? You know, so my question is always, if I had a magic wand and could just fix one thing, what would it be? And I can generally get those, right? Immediately, because then people go, okay, I'm on board on the train because maybe they've been told, you know, for many years, we're going to get help. Things are going to change and staff get to a point of going, it's just like talking to a brick wall.
So we've got to move those things as part of that process. But it's this funny thing that people resist systems so much, but then they say, but I want clarity. And I go, yeah, that's how you get it. So you've got to make it fun. You've got to, as you said, give those rewards, show them some wins, but be listening to people as part of that.
And one of the first things I see that owners will outsource is their finances, right? Get a bookkeeper in because usually they're not good at that, which is great. But I say, so do you know your numbers? No, that's why I have a bookkeeper accountant. Yeah, no, no, no. So you've got to delegate responsibility, but don't abdicate it.
Michael (21:26.85)
Yeah.
Michael (21:30.636)
Yeah, and you've got to use the information that's available and that's the shock you might need. In my last newsletter, I wrote about the power of cloud accounting packages. And whether you do it yourself or outsource, get it done and then actually use the numbers. And you can do so much to cut and dice your business.
Tamara (21:45.938)
Yep. Yep.
Tamara (21:54.162)
Yes.
Michael (22:00.206)
But I think that's the one of the big shocks that an owner will get is that it's not really as profitable as I want. you can, your tax returns don't tell the story. So it's that management accounting. Yeah.
Tamara (22:14.568)
Yeah. And because Michael, they get caught up in the turnover hype, right? You know, I'm sure you've spoken to the business. we're doing really well tomorrow. 500k turnover, million dollar turnover. What's your biggest issue? Cash flow. Right. Because they don't, haven't got the numbers properly to run the business or it's not profitable. you know, don't get caught. Turnover is great, but don't get caught up in it. You know, we...
Michael (22:40.204)
or pro yeah, yeah, it's nuts. It's so true. And it's, it's, it's an easy, it's an easy fix. It's engage a bookkeeper who's, who's, who's good at zero or my elbow or whatever. But as you say, don't advocate, look forward to getting asked for those reports monthly, have a look at them and start asking yourself or your advisors the questions about what's going on in the business. The other, think the other
Tamara (22:53.256)
Correct.
Michael (23:09.786)
shock that comes to owners if they're kind of aware of it is the, just the amount of hours they put into their business. And it can become a habit to say, I've got to work eight till 10 or whatever it is. And you run out of puff at some point. you want, that's another massively important KPI to reduce those hours where impossible. And also
Tamara (23:36.412)
Yes. Yep.
Michael (23:38.99)
in your schedule, have some time out of the business. And that's where the payoff can be. If you've got some staff that are efficient, productive, know what they're doing, and you can start to take a little bit longer break, and the business doesn't break, that's time and money.
Tamara (23:55.25)
Yep. Yes.
Tamara (24:00.904)
Well, that's, and I think to me we've caught, we've bought into this. I've got to be on 24 seven and available. That is just nonsense, right? So, you know, I don't buy into that at all. You know, the world will not end if I don't post on social media or get back to an email immediately. And we've got to break this cycle because we bought into it too much. You know, you and I would remember the days when the mail only came into the office twice a day, right? And the world didn't end, you know? So we, I think we've got to,
you know, get back to some of that thinking that people are not just waiting for me to reply to email or give them phone. They're busy doing their stuff as well. You know, so, you know, I have obviously good customer service standards, but a day is okay. Like if I'm presenting all day, I can't get back to people until probably, you know, the next day and things like that. So, you know, we, it's one of the things I absolutely talk to owners about, about what hours they're doing and, and help them understand that
Because I believe there's a price for everything, right? We've just got to choose whether we accept that. So if we say yes to a job, and we know that's going to mean, for example, much longer hours, time away from family, miss the kids, sporting and all that, you've accepted the price because you've said yes. So, you know, I usually use the hair and tortoise analogy, right? So we're usually running like the hair so often, but we have to be the tortoise and we have to stop, even if that's just to say to a client, you know,
Look, I just need to check my diary. Just give me five minutes and I'll give you a call back. We need to buy that time. And we may still say yes, but that means we've made a choice to accept the price of that versus conscious choice.
Michael (25:41.41)
more of a conscious yes that we all make trade-offs every day. It's a privileged position to be in when an owner says to you or me or whoever, their trusted advisor, what's going on here or how can I make this better? I haven't seen too many businesses that couldn't be improved.
Tamara (25:57.084)
Yeah. Yes.
Michael (26:09.486)
You would you would be the same but the the the hard eggs or not to crack is is often the owner and their sense of what am I in this for or running on expectations about what I should deliver to the shareholders being you know, their family or Yes, it's so it's There's a lot of those businesses run by very dominant owners and that
They're not necessarily trying to be dominant. just are critically important. this is why we're chatting about how to wean off yourself and have some structure and systems in your business so that you get some reward for an investment.
Tamara (26:52.252)
Yeah, and you have to understand that, right? So I've had two clients, one was in building design and one was also in leasing of big heavy equipment, right? So the first one I was called in because I'd been working with lots of building designers and so they contacted me that way because I understood the business. And I was entrenched in that business for probably nearly 12 months working with every staff member.
to document all their knowledge and all of those things. And those creative people are really interesting because they go, I don't need to document anything. And that's a whole different story. But it was interesting that I'd done all the change management, because systems are just change. It's all they are.
Michael (27:35.03)
Yeah, just try just be so what was the trigger for that owner to give you a call and then to basically open up and say.
Tamara (27:43.772)
Yeah, so the trigger initially was he was at one of their local chapter meetings and someone said, know, Tamara's been helping us here and blah, blah. And so he got me in initially and, you know, had quite a big team and stuff and was, you know, had some staff issues and whatever. said, well, that's, you know, what's documented and how does it work? He goes, yeah, we don't have a lot of that. well, can help you with that. So that's how I got, you know, very entrenched in that business, but did all the change management.
with himself and also with the staff and got these beautiful, know, and lots of different moving pieces and things like that. Understood, you know, got differences in terms of, you know, variations where clients or, you know, things went outside the room, all this stuff, right? Beautiful. Got to a point staff are going, this is fair, like we know what we've got to do. There was clarity about roles because people were doing things and he'd go, why are they doing that? I'm going, well, let's fix that, right?
So I did all of that, beautiful, everyone's humming. I came in probably a couple of weeks later and I could sense that something was amiss, you know? And so I spoke to his PA and she said, I need to tell you Tamara, you know, this isn't working anymore and everyone's really upset. And I said, why? said, because the owner has jumped in and gone, jumped about seven processes and said, I just need you to do this really quickly because this is my major and blah, blah. And I'm gone.
had the conversation with the owner and his view at that time was, well, it's my business tomorrow. I said, look, it is, no question. I said, but this is what's happening as a result of you jumping all things, stuff and now going, but this is what used to happen and things didn't work and mistakes and whatever. you know, I'm very honest. I will not take money from someone if, you know, that is not a working relationship. And it was basically that, because I was due to stay with him for another six months.
And I said, look, I said, I know what I've built. Everyone's happy. You were happy and all that. I said, but this is about behavioral change with yourself and your leadership. I'd love to help and coach you, but that's really the choice. So you have a think about that. But if you're going to continue doing this, then there's nothing more I can do at this point in time. And I finished that job, unfortunately, and the staff were devastated because I knew exactly what would happen.
Tamara (30:09.606)
You know, so that's, where those changes are, you know, versus the other business where the staff saw me presented a chamber meeting and they said, my God, we need you. And I came in under the guise with the staff and then got to know the owner and stuff and helped a little bit. But again, an owner that didn't want to be an owner, just wanted to have his stuff run it, but had this perception that he had to be in the office every day. Otherwise.
And I'm going, no, you don't. No, that's okay. No one's thinking that. So it's all these things that you've got to work with owners, but at the end of the day, it's their business. It's their choice. But we have to be open to those particular things. Otherwise, unfortunately, consequences will occur and that's choice.
Michael (30:55.298)
Yeah. And that's one of the primary things, you know, when you're in business as a know, why are you in business? And we've talked a lot about already how expectations can be heightened and a lot of pressure to, but fundamentally to get back to why, why are you in business? and, what does it, what does the business need to look like to deliver whatever your mix of financial and non-financial objectives are? So.
Tamara (31:23.9)
Yeah, and I'm sure you would see it, Mike, lot with family businesses, you know, and they're interesting conversations, aren't they, to, you know, where the sons and daughters have been there and they feel it's not really them, but they feel it for obligation and all these things, you know, they're really, they're really challenging, you know, businesses.
Michael (31:41.73)
They are. And, and that's, it's particularly complex in family because there are all these understandings unspoken about, and, and somebody sparking a conversation are really open. It's hard to, to, you know, to do that. But when it's, it's done, it can be quite overwhelming for the parties involved emotional. Certainly I've seen that and
Tamara (31:49.852)
Yes.
Tamara (32:08.754)
Yes.
Michael (32:11.572)
And exclamations of, you should have told me that 20 years ago, or I just didn't know that. And it's kind of heartwarming when they, you there is that sense of, well, you know, we might've, we might've put some, wasted some time, but you know, we're now a bit clearer. It's particularly, but it's also, it's also, you know, you talk staff, if you got, if you got staff that actually do want to go.
Tamara (32:16.914)
Yeah, that's right. Yeah.
Michael (32:39.288)
do a good job, but want to be involved, want to be productive and do something with a purpose. that's tricky as well, because if you're that kind of owner you just described, which is it's my business, well, it's not really, you're so dependent and the cost will be turnover of staff or lost clients. But anyway, they can be in business for that reason and it's narcissistic or whatever. That's, know, yeah, move on to the next one.
Tamara (32:55.9)
Great.
Tamara (33:04.328)
But the good staff will walk as part of that because everyone reaches a tipping point of where that respect and roles and all those type of things.
Michael (33:16.396)
Yeah. Yeah. do you want to, do you just want to talk about, your methodology briefly and, and, and the book, I mean, you, you live and breathe systems and processes and, and, you mentioned Michael Gerber, the, one of the great books, written about this stuff, but what's, what's your methodology and, and talk a little bit about the book.
Tamara (33:43.024)
Yep. So the book that I've written is The Five Little Business Pigs and it uses the analogy of the fairy tale of the three little pigs because that's how we build our businesses from straw to stick to brick. But when I was writing the book, I realized there was two other houses. There's the Renault and then there's the rundown and there's all those pesky wolves that keep huffing and puffing at our doors as part of that. But it's an analogy that everyone gets and usually whether I'm
talking with someone or in audiences, there's a, I thought I was Reno because I'm growing, but I'm realizing I don't have those strong foundations. So I've got to change that. Or I am a bit run down personally and the business and things like that. But there's always strategies to get back to it. But for most people, even if the dollars are looking good, generally those bricks, they're not as solid as they sort of think as part of that. So my job really is
from a coaching perspective, but also from a speaking perspective is really just to help owners understand what's working, what's wrong and why, and give them strategies to look at better ways to doing things. And I use what I call my five foundation bricks. So the first is about you. And it's about helping owners embrace their role as the small business owner and everything that that entails.
The second is really looking at productivity, which is helping them focus their time. Because again, once they step up, we've got to fix the time because none of the other stuff matters if we can't rejig that because we've all got the same amount of time, but we've got to focus it differently as part of that. The third is really around that profitability. Because if we've got an expensive hobby, we don't want that. So we've got to look at how we actually can grow the business as part of that.
Michael (35:25.272)
we do.
Tamara (35:38.664)
And that's a lot around initially, well, who's your ideal customer? Because it's not everyone, even though we can help everyone, our ideal customer is not that. We then look at, then we're looking at the people, the fourth brick is people. whether that's, even if you're an owner like me by myself, who are the people that you need to guide? Who are the people that you need in the team? I have a graphic designer, I have a business coach, I have other people that can help me as part of that.
And if you've got a team, how can you guide your people? All right, so I believe that because I love my sport, I believe every owner is the coach of their team, providing the strategy and providing the systems, which is the game plan of how people can actually do that. And then the fifth brick is about performance. So how are we actually maintaining that? How are we scaling? How are we putting those systems in place and how are we sustaining that as part of it? So it's helping people understand that.
And in my coaching sessions, I make sure that I'm the sounding board, because I want them downloading to me the frustrations and everything versus taking that home. Because family and friends support us well, but unless you're talking with a business person, they don't quite get it. And that can cause conflict.
Michael (36:56.79)
Yeah, it's, it can be incredibly lonely and, and either those conversations, you just don't have them because you don't feel like you can, or, or there's, maybe heartfelt, well-intended advice coming back or support may or may not, you know, help you. yeah, the role of external coaches who have, can understand what you're going through.
Tamara (37:00.338)
Yeah.
Tamara (37:04.454)
Yes.
Tamara (37:13.0)
Alright. Yeah.
Michael (37:26.05)
bring some domain expertise, so important.
Tamara (37:29.042)
Yeah, it is. And we're not emotionally invested so we can see and we can provide that support. also, you know, I pull my tough love card when I need to because that's important as well.
Michael (37:42.158)
Well, you know, saying no to a client yourself, like you're living, breathing what you're talking about. yeah, this idea of perpetual chasing growth, 10 X this, 10 X that. I'd really happily say that, you know, how many X's you want is up to you. And if you want 1.25, because...
Tamara (37:48.071)
Yes.
Tamara (38:04.808)
Correct.
Michael (38:08.65)
and it's a few tweaks to get you there. That's awesome. And that's your bit. If you want 10x, fantastic. You'll need systems and structures either way, but yeah.
Tamara (38:18.28)
Yeah, I mean, yeah, I don't want an empire. I don't want to be the entrepreneur. I don't want to be the next Branson or whatever, but we've got to use entrepreneurial thinking. So I'm with you. Don't mind what the profit is. Don't mind what your dreams are, but let's make sure that they stretch you and not stress you, but let's use entrepreneurial thinking as part of that.
Michael (38:36.758)
Yeah.
Do you, this is a bit off cue, but do you think the term entrepreneur is a bit of a misfit for a lot of business owners? Do you think they see themselves as, I'm not an entrepreneur, I'm an owner.
Tamara (38:53.138)
Yeah, I profess and continue to say, I want small business owners to say, that's my badge of honor. I'm proud to be a small business owner. Right? So I think there's too much of this entrepreneur. So that's why I switch it and go, I want small business owners to be proud to be that, but apply entrepreneurial thinking into what they do.
Michael (39:09.752)
Yeah.
Michael (39:17.592)
Yep, yeah. Now, I like that. And there's a lot to be learned from incredibly successful entrepreneurs, but don't believe everything you hear. And don't chase everything just because it's growth. Yeah, wearing it loud and proud.
Tamara (39:27.186)
Yep, absolutely.
Tamara (39:36.392)
Absolutely, because we're brave people, we forget that. We're brave people that took this amazing step to leave a job to do this thing that hopefully we love, that we're good at and is providing the money that we want and all those type of things. But we're brave people, not everyone can do this gig.
Michael (39:54.722)
No, there's no, it's, I, that sort of the work you're doing when you're going in and talking to employees, I often think about the, that, that, that gap, it's, it's, it's really widened some organizations and re and narrows in others where the employees have no sense of what it's like to be an owner, no interest in being an owner. And that's fine, but
It's, there are other organizations where, know, where you see employees who are, it's not their job. It's not their, they're not taking the risks. It's fine. you see, but I don't know, it's a, cultural thing or a, but where there's an understanding both ways that the, think there's a lot of, there's, there's work to be done. You obviously do it with the employees. In one case, you said the employees actually initiated.
you coming in is one of the case studies you talked about. that's, and that's, that is a, that's a culture that's pretty, you know, cool because it's in their interest, but it's also in the owners, whether they, maybe the owner's given them the license to go along to that networking event for that very reason. Who knows?
Tamara (40:54.514)
Yeah. Yeah.
Tamara (41:10.994)
Yeah, I remember years ago, I had an owner say to me tomorrow, just don't get it. Like, why aren't my employees, you know, is invested in my business, you know, as I just don't get. said, firstly, you've got great employees, you know, they're doing really well. said, but of course they're not. It's not their business. It's yours. So, you know, you can work all the stupid hours and do all those types of things, but that shouldn't be translated to them as long as they're doing the job you want them to do and doing it well.
within normal working hours, because we need to get back to that. That's the ideal of having staff. you'll always have some people that are just those natural leaders and will help you and go. But there's a lot to be said also for the people that just come to work, do their job really well and go home, because they're the backbone of your small business. And they're usually admin.
Michael (41:47.479)
Yeah. Yeah.
Michael (42:01.612)
They sure are. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And that's the kind of, you know, traits you want. You're just steady. And I went to a session a week before last on the employee ownership. And there's a guy called Graham Nuttall from the UK who's out, I think he's on a holiday, but he did a couple of sessions. Employee Ownership Australia is an organisation that promotes employee ownership. He's got a...
It seems in the UK that employee ownership is a lot more advanced than it is here. yeah, was really, you know, all of the data from the UK was that the businesses are more productive. It's a fairer, equitable distribution of wealth, ultimately.
what I didn't yet follow up or research is the direct benefits for an owner. I've seen and worked in quite a lot of transactions where the staff have come to an owner or the owner's gone to some key staff. yeah, I think that's...
It's certainly not for everybody, but this particular model that he talked about was an employee ownership trust. And it's, I'm still getting on, you know, to understand it at a deeper level, but if everybody has some interest without putting their house on the line, but it's, you know, it's, it seems like it's got some, some legs and, and I would say it's, it's probably in some businesses, the missing link between getting
Tamara (43:42.226)
Yes.
Michael (43:55.126)
reasonable productivity and extremely good or exceptional productivity, but anyway, we'll keep tracking that.
Tamara (44:00.988)
Yeah, yeah. And look, yeah, look, it can be and it can be options. think, you know, I've certainly worked with teams where they've had targets and stuff of bringing in new customers. what's happened is that, you know, there's not opportunity, say, for admin to really do that. So you've got to be really careful about whole of business, you know, targets, because it's hard to get by if everyone is actually not able to achieve that.
Michael (44:11.95)
Yeah.
Michael (44:28.162)
Yeah, well, can be, yeah, like we're talking about the beginning, it can be an owner chasing sales because they're the rainmaker, but if it's not profitable or it puts the team who's delivering or manufacturing or under extreme pressure, it's kind of counterproductive. Yeah.
Tamara (44:39.964)
Yeah. Yeah. And pressure. Yeah, that's right. Yeah. We see that a lot as well. they've just done that. that's great. How are we going to do that within capacity and capabilities we currently have it, you know?
Michael (44:50.542)
Ha ha ha.
Yeah, override being you need to have a whole of business or how does this impact the business? But if they all, those KPIs or stretch targets can line up, it's all good. I was a bit keen to just get your take in closing or we'll get you to read out.
Tamara (45:01.926)
Yeah, very much so.
Tamara (45:08.402)
Yeah. Yeah.
Michael (45:23.756)
I'll talk about the name of your book and we'll put a link to that in the show notes. the, seems like for me that there's a lot of businesses that could do with the kind of work you do. There's reasons that we all, maybe we've all got a slightly different take on it, but what would you implore an owner to do who's listening in?
And he's going, I'm working a lot of hours. don't think I'm making.
the money I should be making or I wanna make, what are the couple of things you would say, whether they're baby steps or completely like radical restructures, what would you suggest they do as a next step and then the one after that?
Tamara (46:14.204)
Well, I certainly believe and I'm not saying this because I am a business coach. I certainly believe that every business should should have a coach. I just like every sporting team to be successful as a coach. I know my business changed for the better once I had a coach. And you'll see that in all businesses. The trick for that, though, for owners, particularly when cash is tied, is we have this conflict. But I haven't got the dollars yet. But we need people.
you know, what if that person can help make your dollars and free up your time and all those type of things. So it's it's weighing up the cost benefit as part of that. You know, so so certainly, you know, if there's an owner out there going, yeah, have a free chat with me, you know, I'll give you solutions to stuff that, know, is frustrating you right now as part of that. But I think that that's the first thing. I think the second thing also is, is to be thinking about
and doing your own reflection about, well, you know, if I had to build this business again, is this what I would have? You know, do I know my numbers? Have I actually got the simple profitable business that I actually love? Because if you haven't got that, then something needs to change, you know, as part of that.
Michael (47:26.092)
Yeah. Yeah. That's a good way to reflect on. I often use a, like a mirror of that, which is, would you buy this? Would you buy the business? Really? Come on. Would you?
Tamara (47:36.38)
Well, exactly. Yeah. Yeah. Like if you had opportunity to pitch on Shark Tank, could you do it? Or would they say to you, but you're not profitable, you keep losing money each year or you're not clear on your customer. You know, I mean, I love those shows. I love Shark Tank, both the Australian US plus Dragon's Den. And people go, why? Why? Because you get so much learnings. Because, you know, there's many things of why those
Michael (47:45.119)
Mm. Yeah.
Michael (47:53.954)
Yeah.
Tamara (48:04.146)
deals don't fail and why they beat them up. If you don't know your numbers, if you're not clear of your customer, if you're not clear of your point of difference, which by the way is not a quality product and great customer service, because that's my expectation as a customer. What else have you got? You know, so there's things like that. yeah, it's would you build it again? Could you sell it? Could you pitch it? You've got to be open and honest to that. And I think, you know, coming into any new year is
Michael (48:18.2)
Yeah. Yeah.
Tamara (48:34.088)
You know? It was it!
Michael (48:34.19)
It's not a bad time for some introspection about, you know, what, you know, those kinds of questions and then.
Tamara (48:41.192)
Yeah, you know, I mean, I use for myself and talk with clients at all the time, but particularly at the beginning of new years, new quarters, things like that is what are the three things I need to start doing? What are the three things I need to keep doing? And what are the three things I need to stop doing? And some of that might be an into to stop making excuses because we've got to we've got to put the mirror on us. And I own that as well, right?
Michael (49:04.686)
Hahaha.
Tamara (49:08.198)
You know, there are reasons why we're not where we are. And some of that is us.
Michael (49:12.844)
And it's okay to acknowledge that. Yeah, all right. Okay, Tamara, thank you so much for your time. What's the best place for people to reach you?
Tamara (49:15.432)
Absolutely. Yeah. That's where you go from here.
Tamara (49:25.148)
Yep, so they can head to my website, which is tamarasimon.com.au. That's where they can get the, have a look at the book. You can download the first three chapters for free. You can also book, as I said, a free chat with me, see if I can help solve at least one of your biggest problems. And I'm also on LinkedIn and Facebook as well. So they can connect with me there.
Michael (49:45.644)
Okay, yeah, we'll put all those links, but yeah, clearly open to people reaching out. Yeah, thanks so much for your time, incredibly energetic and really, you know, practical and pragmatic stuff that you can do in your business and don't delay.
Tamara (49:50.63)
Yeah, definitely.
Tamara (50:02.376)
No, thank you very much to your time, Michael, and to your audience. I really appreciate it hope there's been a couple of gems there for you.
Michael (50:08.886)
I'm sure there has. All right, Tamara, thank you so much.
Tamara (50:12.732)
Thanks.